The Nachbaur Papers
A gentleman named Andy (Anton J.) Nachbaur had some interesting and occasionally
clever things to say about beekeeping, honey bee regulations (and regulators), bee science, and bee scientists.
He was connected with beekeeping since 1954 and was a commercial beekeeper in Los Banos, California,
Meeker, Colorado, and Arivaca, Arizona.
Mr. Nachbaur was well known in the state and national legislatures and in the beekeeping industry and by those who would regulate it.
He was responsible, at times single
handed, for the "beekeeper indemnification program", and deregulation of
beekeeping in California and other states. He has proven that a few
beekeepers can effect change in the USA if armed with the weapons of truth
and no money. He was well known for his support of beekeeping research and was
one of the few beekeepers who actively supported both basic and applied
beekeeping research.
We have gleaned a few of Andy Nachbaur's timely remarks from his submissions to the Bee-L mailing
list and the sci.agriculture.beekeeping news group and re-printed them here.
Andy Nachbaur, retired beekeeper, and cyber-beekeeping pioneer, died on March 17, 1999, following a long illness.
Andy was a great sting in the side of many beekeepers, regulators, researchers, and inspectors. We will all miss
his wit, courage, and stamina. He posted hundreds of letters to the Bee-List, bee news groups, and on his web page.
Since 1954, he kept thousands of hives in the American southwest - Colorado, Arizona, and California. Later, he was
one of the first ever to make use of the electronic medium - a bulletin board system, or BBS, which he started in 1988.
Years ago, I would phone his California computer and download files and programs he kept there. In recent years, he was
vocal and instructive with his rambling wit, wisdom, and opinions. Although I could not always agree with his ideas -
and certainly our politics were completely polarized (Andy leaned so far right that our ideologies sometimes met as
I lean much too far left) - I have proudly kept some of Andy's public notes on this web site for the past few years.
November 19, 1998 Bee Losses
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Bees in the trees?
At 08:17 AM 11/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
>There are still a few occupied bee trees in this area (western West
>Virginia) and one of the largest swarms I captured this year came from a
>house in town that is said to have been there for many years. AFB is not a
>problem here so this may help.
Hi Steve and Friends,
"Yes, Virginia there still are bees in the trees." If this is not a quote
from a famous Christmas letter it should be. Virginia is not the only area
in the US that still has bee trees but you would never believe it by what
is quoted in the hype we are exposed to every day about our bees. What
started as a simple observation in one area of the US has exploded by its
re-telling into a problem that never was.
As long as bees swarm there will be bee trees and this is the bottom line.
Sure bees in the trees suffer the same as bees in our hives from the
problem of the day be it lack of pasture, poor forging conditions as well
as disease, pests, and predators. There is NO separate feral or wild honey
bee populations despite what some would like to believe. What makes the
feral population different is the competition for nesting sites and some
natural selection but most important is the number of kept hives in any one
area that naturally restock the bee trees.
Today we practice a migratory system of beekeeping trading our production
for gasoline by keeping our bees on wheels. This has caused a great change
in swarming patterns with the location of swams having shifted from the
north to the south and east to west. Bees that swarm in California almond
orchards at the end of the bloom would in the past normally swarmed in
their northern or eastern home state. Let us not forget that good
beekeeping also does not permit uncontrolled swarming and we have become
more expert at preventing it.
At one time here in Central California a beekeeper could increase 100%
every year just by catching swarms today catching swarms would not make up
normal winter loss or 10% of our bees. All this good beekeeping combined
with good and bad pasture seasons has of course resulted in less bee trees
in this area that never had that many because of the lack of nesting sites
as our older building have be replaced by tighter modern constructions. Few
today remember the wooden sidewalks of old.
>Speaking of small cell size, I noticed my older hives without queen
>excluders move up into new honey supers as I add them through the summer. I
>know this could be from many reasons but wonder if bees do prefer newer
>comb.
Its the heat. The queen prefers the warmest area of the hive and will not
lay on cold combs. Many wonder how a good queen catcher can catch so many
queens when they spend so much time themselves looking for their queens.
Most fast queen catchers know to look in the warmest part of the hive which
of course varies with the time of day so in the am the queen may be found
on the side facing the sun while on a warm afternoon she may be found in
the middle of the hive and if the hive is really warm she may be found on
the bottom side of the top or even at times not found at all. Most
beekeepers find that darker combs are preferred by queens and this to maybe
because of the heat a old black comb can attract and hold compared to a
nice white extracting comb. Its also easier for the beekeeper to see the
queens work in the bottom of a dark cell and miss it in the bottom of a
white comb.
>>another post. Just a few years after the onset of varroa there are
>>practically no feral colonies here in Western New York. Farmers and long
>>time residents have told me of bee trees that have been around for many
>>years, were always populated and are now dead.
Sure I believe this, the only question I would ask any beekeeper how many
feral hives do you know about and how long you have known about it. It
surprises me that most can only count a few, many none other then the old
bee tree they knew as a child, and most do not follow the condition of
these feral hives for any length of time.
>> Gardeners and vegetable farmers tell us there are no bees visiting their
crops. It seems likely
>>that many of these colonies had small cells as you mentioned and bee
>>trees are seldom disturbed by beekeepers.
This would seem unusual because honeybees and their problems actually are
said by some to make it better for other types of wild bees so garden
pollination should be no problem. It is true that some years the weather
keeps the bees in during the part or all of the pollination season causing
less then maximum yields even under controlled condition where hundreds of
thousands hives are available to do the job. And it is also true that if
all the commercial hives in one area are moved to another area a dramatic
reduction in available honeybee pollinators can be expected. This may be
critical in areas that for what ever reason had few kept hives to began with.
Nothing prevents any farmer from keeping his own bees which would be one
way to remedy the pollination problem and at the least spend lots of
production dollars keeping their own bees alive which is a type of poetic
justice for all the years of spraying those same bees when own by
beekeepers and generally making life miserable for real beekeepers. I like
the rumor of giving every farmer with a beehive $100,000.00 and expect that
it would be gone in a short time and they would be back looking to rent
bees for pollination. Reminds me of the lucky beekeeper who won a million
in the lottery and was asked what he would do with it and said "I will
continue keeping bees until its gone". In the end the farmer will not only
lose the money but also will have no bees..
ttul, the OLd Drone
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
in any form, or to print for any use.
(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
November 13, 1998 More on the Killer Bees
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: "killer" bees returns
At 06:08 PM 11/12/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> One reason for this is that in the past we have been able to
>> demonstrate bad behavior in bees that exceeds anything reported in
>> Africanized bees prior or since to its introduction into the US.
>Part II : This reason is just not true - Dr Spangler, of our lab, has
developed
>an inexpensive device to measure aggressiveness, which has not been widely
>used. I have personally witnessed tests of aggressiveness which would
literally
>knock your socks off. I cannot accept the statement that the level of
stinging
>bees has not gone up since the AHB arrived. I have worked with hived and
feral
>bees for 34 years in Tucson, seldom selected for gentleness.
Hi John & Bee Friends,
No doubt about it your area is different, having myself been able to bring
500 hives into your area that I actually shook down at the end of the
almond bloom from doubles without a veil in California only to have them
turn into aggressive beasts that would comply with all behavioral
characteristics of "killer" bees within a few days of being placed in out
yards in your area. I have unique hands on experience myself as a
commercial beekeeper in your area and agree with all descriptions of their
aggressive behavior. I believe you and what you say and if you say the bees
are different today then they must be different, you are there and I am
here. What I do not believe is that all is lost and that we should all get
into the honeybee extermination business, yet.
This aggressive behavior I am writing about, the old aggressive behavior
that I experienced, is not limited to a few locations or a few miles of bee
pasture but may extend far west into Mexico and east to Texas, "and north
into New Mexico according to Jaycox at the time", and according to
beekeepers I have visited with in these areas. Most all have a story about
why their bees are aggressive. The one I heard the most was " we selected
for aggressive bees to reduce vandalism" by the public. I heard many more
stores like we made a mistake and used queens from Hawaii, when bees from
Hawaii had a little problem with fire in their belly even in California. I
am sure today most would say it is the "Afro" bees from Mexico and all say
they can tell the difference in some of their bees if not all.
Before I moved bees into your area I spend several seasons working bees
there, killing "all" old queens each season and replacing them with gentle
stock from Oliver Hill and others in Northern Californian picked because of
years of personal experience with individual genital stock. These queens
did well in your area and their hives produced excellent crops of honey
depending on the season but their aggressive behavior matched the local
stock and they were without quantization "killer" bees by all written
description in the best of times.
All of this was BEFORE the advent of any new race of bees entering the US.
One thing I did not do that I really wish I had is to move truck loads of
these bees back to California so I can not say first hand what would happen
only guess and my guess is that in a short time without intervention by man
they would be no more aggressive then local stock. Though only a guess I am
pretty secure in this because so many bees are being moved each spring from
known "killer" bee areas to California with NO unusual problems reported
other then what one would expect from any bees. California regulatory
officials do not check these bees because of the value of their work to the
almond industry without regards to their race or origins so I can not say
how they measure up other then I would guess they would be the same as if
they were checked in their home states and that is Africanized when
recovered as swarms.
Before the advent of the Afro bees introduction into Texas tests were
conducted here by Daly I believe and he was able easily to demonstrate
Africanized bees boarder to boarder in California in both hive and feral
populations. At least one of these feral hives has been shown by all tests
to be the only 100% African stock found in the Americas. NONE OF THESE BEES
WERE AGGRESSIVE. None were measured for aggressive behavior because none
were aggressive. This work was paid for by the Calif. Dept. of Agriculture
and was not made public.(wonder why) I did get a copy and reproduced it and
tried to get it out to all the bee labs and interested persons at the time,
you may have one in your library I don't know.
Now I have no doubts that bees are aggressive in your area. I believe what
I have seen with my own eyes and felt the real proof on my own skin many
times. I do have serious concerns with what has and is reported as the
scientific reason from this difference including measurements, and
expensive DNA tests. This cynicism has not been helped by the hyping of the
problem by some in the public funded Bee Research/Regulatory Business and
the setting up of phoney, less then honest demonstrations for the public
and press by the same. No reflection on your own organization or their work
as over the years I have found you all to be good people and tireless
scientists, others are not.
I am somewhat disappointed in the fact that no solution has been found for
this aggressive behavior as I know there is one and believe it will turn
out to be simple and have nothing to do with DNA or the WWII science of
morphometrics. I suspect to much effort is being made in identifying
problems and looking for new ones and I am sure more will be found.
ttul, Andy-
Los Banos, Left Coast of the Republic of America
October 15, 1998 Mad Bee Attack
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Angels?
Do You Believe in ANGELS?
Well the beekeepers have one in Bisbee Arizona. A Debrah Strait after being
stung maybe 500 times last month by mad bees has taken her time to write
one of
the newspapers that has been hyping the "killer" bees and ask that the bees
"not be killed".
I don't have her address but my bet having been to Bisbee Arizona a old
fashion
small town she would receive any thank you cards from beekeeper sent there. If
you are interested your post office can supply you with the right zip code.
ttul, the OLd Drone
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
in any form, or to print for any use.
(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
October 28, 1998 Using Extender Patties
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Extender Patties
>At 07:33 PM 10/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Dave and I were having a hard time this year getting our bees to 'remove'
>>or 'use' the extender patties when we placed it on the inner cover or as a
>>single patty over the frames. Sure can't help the bees if they don't touch
As a rule in feeding honeybees, matters not what, the more sugar the grater
or faster it's used. Does not mean they get any good out of it but it will
disappear.
Being close to Halloween I will confess I have even fed my bees a few
hundred pounds of dried cows blood in a dozen different formulations. (barf-)
I was lucky I did not kill any bees that time but I did get caught in a
rain storm going out to a yard and if you saw that old Halloween flick with
the bucket of blood falling on the queen of the prom you have some idea of
what I looked like after putting out that batch of super high protein
patties.
ttul, the OLd Drone
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
in any form, or to print for any use.
(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
October 14, 1998 Pollen and Supplemental Feeding
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: oak honey
At 10:39 PM 10/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>As an aside to Tony's remarks I have a concern. With the massive flows we've
>had all summer our wintering hives don't appear as large as usual.
>We are putting our hives to bed and noticed the clusters are smaller
>than normal. I think the massive flows have plugged the hives more than
>normal and prevented the usual amout of brood production.
Hi Friends,
First back to the Oak Honey, even in this area of mild winters oak, fir,
willow, or any honeydew can be a problem with carrying the bees through a
long period with little or no brood rearing. Some of this may be because of
the quality of the honey itself or the lack of pollen during these good
extra floral flows. In some cases even small amounts of honeydew can cause
the bees gastro intestinal problems if they can not fly and relieve
themselves.
Here in California our first spring pollen comes early enough to make up
for some of this, but I am sure in areas that the bees do not get out early
but start brooding about the same time with what pollen and honey is stored
in the hive, that these hives do have problems and end up an unexplained
deadout with lots of stored honey. Because of our open winters here gastro
intestinal problems seldom are seen except as expressed in yellow rain. The
only spotting inside or outside the hive I have seen is in bees from out of
state that were already in trouble and in one newbee who fed his bees prune
juice and other juices for his own personal reasons.
>So I wonder if they will winter well? Lots of stores though. Anyone else
with smaller clusters?
In my own efforts to perfect the benign neglect methodology of keeping bees
I have found the single most detrimental effect is from leaving too much
honey on them for what ever reason. Yes they look good and its nice to heft
a heavy hive in the fall but as you report there can be less young bees in
the dormant cluster and it seems to me that the efforts the bees make to
keep warm are made more difficult when the hives is blocked out with honey
that normally would have been extracted.
Every area is different as every year seems also but the most productive
commercial beekeepers today appear to be the ones who feed the most sugar
syrup and protein supplements. Admittedly this goes against my own benign
neglect system but I have found that some compromise may be necessary if
success is the goal even in keeping bees.
So my advise is take off the honey even if you are going to keep it for
feed at a later date, and feed the bees to increase brood rearing during
the times they will respond to that diets, does no good to feed them in the
dead of winter and may do harm, but in the fall and early spring it can
make a big difference. All feeding should include some kind of protein as
well as sugar un less one or the other is available naturally.
ttul, the OLd Drone
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
in any form, or to print for any use.
(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
October 14, 1998 Andy's Opines on Politics and Imported Honey
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Who's watching the store?
At 08:27 AM 10/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>this string has hit a nerve that I have been dealing with about imported
>honey.
>we eat it any way. Whats the logic. Who are the laws portecting?
>all of it. I hope that this clears up your questions about that.
>As for who are they protecting? The Communist Chinese have broken our
>polical campaign finance laws (along with Clinton and Gore). Who knows what
>influence they have purchased with the USDA which comes under the purvue of
>the Clinton administration as a result.
You got that right. Its called "fair trade", they sell us honey, we sell
them political influence and plans for rockets. We will have to wait to see
who got the best deal.
I hate it, and I am for throwing the bums in jail, others of the different
bent would slam them on the back of the hand and move on. I do have to
remember what one of our old bosses here in California said about the
subject of lobbying which went something like this, "if you can't take
their money, drink their booze, use their women and then vote against them
you don't belong in politics". Its too bad this generation of Democrats
have forgotten their old hero who said that, and Willie don't drink.
It does seem that todays political heros have forgotten about the "vote"
against them part and may have passed on some of our national secrets that
could come back in a ballistic form.
Back on earth we US beekeepers have created a real problem, a demand for
honey that we can not supply even with our barns full of it. This increased
demand is supplied by producers in countries that have much lower costs
then we do in the US so we are forced into competition with those who can
always sell at our lowest price or under us. We have changed the consumer
protection laws to require honey produced outside the US to be identified
on the honey label, as far as I know it has made no difference, as
consumers are less concerned with the area of production then they are
other differences such as price and floral source.
Strange not long ago in the 50's the government paid us to export honey and
we did.
Even stranger is some of our solutions to insuring the future of the honey
producers, including promoting generic honey which is mostly imported
honey, re-starting the honey price support program that what ever price is
set it becomes both the bottom world price and top price for US honey. That
is OK for those who would ship honey here but a bummer for our own
producers who already are suffering because of low prices and high cost.
How much honey does it take to buy a new truck? I guess we will be able to
clear the decks of honey in storage, but without import controls I don't
see any lasting benefit other then just another generation of beekeepers
dependent on the government.
ttul, the OLd Drone
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
in any form, or to print for any use.
(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
September 15, 1998 Africanized Honey Bees
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: AHB, DNA, and Quarantines
At 10:38 AM 9/15/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Although both Smith and Ruttner are reputable researchers they based
>their research on a very old fashioned and practically useless
>technique - morphomentrics - which distinguishes bees on a basis of
>wing vein angles and a bunch of other screw balled measurements.
Oh my gosh Garth, this is blast-O-me! How in the world could you say such a
thing when so much in the USDA BS morphing is based on this pre WWII
research in Germany. My ears are bigger then yours so I must be purer.
>I believe that the only real tell tale distinguishment between bee
>races can be made by various genetic techniques. Of these various DNA
>fingerprinting techniques (OK, but suspect to being messed up by
>random factors etc) and sequencing of certain characterisitic regions
>seems to be the best way of distinguishing a species. I believe as
>yet the results of such work has not been released. This is for
>fingerprinting work. Nobody has the cash to do comprehensive
>sequencing surveys of AHB races.
The OJ trial in Hollywood showed what reasonable people who are informed by
the biggest legal minds think about DNA. This is not to say that I do not
believe that DNA ,or OJ did not kill his wife, is not a good tool and I
have been impressed myself with tests that can determine the food source of
individual strains of imported insects but suspect with honeybees our BS
has read more into this science then is really there. Too much reminds me
of getting finger prints from a man with no hands so you would use his ears
as it must be that no two sets of ears are the same.
It is interesting to note that when the USDA put a effort into finding the
zone of translocation between Mexican Afro bees and Texas bees via the
latest DNA methods it was/has never been found and thats why the
story/exclamation is that Afro bees migrate into an area and take over the
hives which is pure BS.
Tex-Mex bees moved to California have not migrated into the local bees
after years of such movement at a time that includes the early spring
swarming season. Bees moved into California from Texas in the spring
contain large and increasing populations of drones compared to few in the
over wintering local hives, this alone would allow for the increased
possibility of early virgin queens mating with Tex-Mex bees. Of course this
has happened and without a problem. It also must be remembered that all
bees that are moved into California do not necessarily return to the state
of their origin and some could be moved to the North (Washington state) for
Apple pollination before moving East (North Dakota) for honey production
and then South (back to Texas). I should say this is an over simplification
of what actually happens and really know of no such movement but would bet
the farm that it has happened knowing the great love beekeepers have for
the smell of diesel and pollination cash.
Early tests in California before the so called Kern County "1st find of
Afro bees in the USA" was able to show one feral hive, (out of many
identified from boarder to boarder in California), that over the years
continues to be 100% African using all know tests. This hive was docile as
was all other feral and hive honey bees tested up to the Kern County find
using morphometrics which continues to be the backbone of regulatory
testing for Afro bees. This fact alone should set off a red flag and
questions on what we are looking for and that maybe we need to understand
why individual hives and hives in individual locations are aggressive. When
we understand this then we could possibly show a difference between
different strains or races of bees. This work has never been done or even
started and is basic.
IMHO. I have stood alone ostracized for years as I do not believe what
others have reported as scientific fact and present as scientific evidence
is understood by the reporters or is truly the results of the cross
breeding of bees with African drones because so much can not be explained
or is explained away in ways that have nothing to do with science. In the
Kern County African bee story the more times individual hives were tested
the more Africanized bees were found but not consecutively. That is one
hive would test negative and then in a repeat of the test a few weeks later
would be positive. When it became apparent that these hives had been
requeened with Northern California stock that spring all testing was
halted. This is one reason why the quarantine had to be lifted and one
reason why in the US all federal regulatory quarantines stopped for fear of
a law suit that could not be defended by the government. Texas continues to
test but their quarantine is political and like a skive and Texas bees can
be found in all bee keeping commerce via movement by truck and mail.
What I do believe is that if my dog or my bees kill my neighbors kids for
what ever reason that after the 2nd or third kid I will no longer have a
dog or bees. Some who for their own personal reasons would have the public
believe that African bees are more dangerous then European races of bees
and have killed more people then European bees and they have inflated the
numbers but this is false and world health statistics have not shown any
real changes in bee caused deaths. Statistics in the US actually may show a
small decrease in "honey" bee caused deaths in the years since the advent.
This fear mongering may get increased government BS funding for study but
have had a very negative impact on the beekeeping industry in the US with
many public and private bee pasture areas now out of bounds for the keeping
of bees and increased expense because of unreasonable insurance
requirements in others.
ttul, the OLd Drone
Follow the daily public hype of the "killer" bee & worm story at:
http://beenet.com/bnews.htm
September 16, 1998 About the Queen's Stinger
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Queens stinging
At 10:12 AM 9/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I can recall some time ago reading a tale on this List of
>someone in California who used to (believe it or not)
>store Queens in his mouth as he was working away.
Yep, after a cool one on a very hot afternoon as my buddy went for some
more queen cages I did do that.
>He did get stung inside his mouth one or more times
>once and quit the practice.
>Probably in this case, the Queens were trying to kill
>one another inside his mouth and accidentally stung the
>beekeeper.
Thats a good idea but does not explain the times I have been stung by
queens as I pinched them between my fingers. My own theory is that virgin
or non laying queens are more adapted at stinging but I have never taken
the time to check it out or have I read of anyone else doing it.
>[ Aside .... at age 65, I am "finally" learning never to
>say never.....contrary things do happen :-) ]
Some people take longer, I learned long ago and I am only 60.
ttul, the OLd Drone
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
in any form, or to print for any use.
(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
September 11, 1998 Lolita (The Book, that is...)
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Lolita
At 09:34 AM 9/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>My wife's book group is reading "Lolita" and they came across a passage
about the pair driving through Arizona and California, where at the border
"a policeman's cousin would peer with such intensity at us....[and ask] Any
honey?"
> Do any of you know whether there were such inspections 40 years ago
and if so, what would they be looking for? Or is this just part of
Nabokov's imagination?
Yes, California did have agricultural inspections stations 40 years ago on
most of the boarder highways and they would ask if you had any fruits and
vegetables, don't recall if they asked about honey but do believe judging
by some of the smart ass people I have come across working at these
stations myself that is about the level of question they would ask if you
had a young girl with you. They were looking from the same thing they look
for when they inspect a package of queen bees at the post office and that
is the permits issued by some other state certifying that the honey or bees
are disease free. Thats OK but having worked in these other states the
permits or paper work are issued by the book to anyone that asks and more
for friends and they are not worth the paper they are written on. The same
goes for California, I used to get my package bee and queen certificates by
the box of 500 each winter before the shipping season started, but of
course in this case they were as good as my inspection which was OK but I
objected to having some state inspectors name on them when it was I who did
the work and stood behind the product.
Several years ago I came through a boarder station with two identical
pick-up's both carrying identical loads, brand new extractors from the
manufacture in Utah. We were about three minutes apart. I was in the lead
pu and was waved passed and my driver in the 2nd pu was held up for two
hours as they tried to find out if his load was legal which required going
through three levels of command all whom had gone home for the night. After
that experience if there is an alternative route I take it and save a lot
of agitation and time on the road. Other beekeepers have had to dump off in
the desert drums of bees wax and the like because they lacked the proper
permits.
ttul, the OLd Drone
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
in any form, or to print for any use.
(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
September 11, 1998 Botulism Talkback
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Learning Curve botulism
Hi Honey Producers & Honey Consumers!
Hunter remarked:
>honey contains very small amounts of the botulism bacteria. This bacteria
>produces the most powerful bacterial toxin known to man.
Many believe this, the question could be can we as honey producers and
honey consumers reduce the amount of spores by changing our own actions
such as covering supers of honey with dust proof covering when transporting
supers of honey from the bee yard to the extracting site or on our own
tables? I don't know the answer just asking the question.
>Fortunately, it occurs in such small amounts that the normal immune system
can knock it down
>without trouble.
This must be true as people including their infants and children have been
eating honey for several generations since we left the trees and there is
nothing to indicate in our written records of a massive man or even a baby
kill because of it. A tie to crib death has not been linked to botulism as
once was claimed by a certain zealot in the California State Department of
Health who was singly responsible for the campaign against honey. One
rotten bureaucrat can increase the amount of anxiety in the life of all who
live in the honey barrel.
>Infants, however, are a different story. Supposedly, their immune systems
(as well as those of the very >elderly) aren't up to the challenge. Its a
shame infants have to miss out on honey, but there is no
>reason for anybody to take unnecessary risks.
Some say with authority that what you say about infants is true, I have
never seen anything at all about older humans having any problem at all
with normal use of honey in their diets and doubt there is any such
information. I think there is confusing information or thoughts on immune
systems because of our new knowledge of AIDS and this is not what we
experience as we age but of course in any serious health problems there are
changes made in our life but in the majority of ageing persons even with
problems of the ageing the use and even increased use of honey to replace
other sweeteners is a positive experience and may even extend life for some
of the same reasons some mother's are careful about feeding to much honey
to babies.
As for the infants...I have read the record of those who proposed botulism
in honey as a threat to infants in the legislature of California and then
in the courts and I was not convinced of a problem or were the majority of
others who were interested other then those on the fringe who proposed the
idea in the first place. The honey industry went along with the orders of
the court to supply information to infant care givers because it was the
least costly alternative the other being years of costly litigation over
including "infant warnings" on every consumer container of honey. Some say
that it reduces our liability as honey producers but this is not true and
anyone who thinks that the death of any infant that could be prevented is
not serious has no heart and may be their own worst enemy. If there is no
liability it is because there is no real danger that could be prevented by
excluding honey in the infants diet.
IMHO Mothers who do not mind changing diapers should not fear the use of
honey as a sugar replacement in children's food, those who would rather not
maybe should at least wait until the infants can be potty trained as the
real documented effect of honey on infants is softening of the stools. But
please remember I am not a doctor or lawyer and what I am repeating is only
the experience of others who also may not be doctors or lawyers and only
parents if that makes any difference.
The truth is that if you put some strains of natural occurring botulism in
honey it will not disappear on its own. Most honey at retail has little or
no botulism but any honey once the container is opened will in time be
contaminated with any botulism that is present in the dust of the living
area, which is true for most any foods. Honey used in processed food that
are cooked do not contain viable botulism until those foods are opened and
exposed.
I am not recommending the feeding of honey to infants as I don't recommend
the dosing of their bottle with wine to promote peaceful afternoon naps
which may or may not lead to alcoholism in the adult child.
http://beenet.com
ttul, the OLd Drone
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September 6, 1998 Amitraz as Used Elsewhere
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: amitraz
At 12:46 PM 9/6/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Gentlemen! In my recent trip to Europa I picked up some liquid amitraz. Does
>anybody knows how to use this chemical in the liquid form. (25% solution).
>They told me amitraz is effective agains both mites. I would appreciate any
>help I could get in this matter. Thank You. Attila
Hi Attila,
The best way to find out how to use it is to talk with other local bee
keepers in your area that have or are using it. I am sure by this time the
problems such as killing your own bees have been worked out. If you can't
find this information search the Internet as formulations have been posted
in the past for this chemical and formulations of other products that
contain it. Stock men are good sources of information as they have several
mite problems and solutions that could be adapted to honey bees. Some of
these can be purchased at larger farm supply stores if you know the name of
the chemical you want to use and have time to read the label on consumer
products..
Posting questions like that here in an international list group with so
many US bee keepers only gets you lots of remarks about the legalities of
its use as here in the US its use is not allowed at this time in the US
because of problems with bee kills in the one prescribed product that was
in use for a short time and then only in a limited area. Some say this and
other products are being used here, I can not say other then what I have
heard which is different then what I have seen which is heavy reliance of
APISTAN strips that are very costly and may be less effective then other
products or methods of Varroa mite control.
US beekeepers have a problem believing that our own laws, rules, and
regulation are not world wide in scope and if you do not identify the
country you are from they are fast in assuming that you are asking for
information for use of products that are clearly not permitted locally in
our country. We have a hard time believing that if we can not use something
that others may be within their own rights and laws to do so as we lost
ours long ago. We are sometimes called Ugly Americans but in reality we
have a ugly system of Bee Regulation that is hard to differentiate from
other support systems of bee keeping such as Bee Science, and Bee Keeper
Education because of an incestuous relationship between them here in the US
and we are fast becoming brain washed and sadly brain dead.
Our system does not tell us if this chemical does not work or that it is
any more or less desirable to use as a Varroa mite killer as any other
chemical only that we may not use it as it is not registered to use in bee
hives. In other countries wood strips, such as tough depressors or popcycle
sticks are allowed to soak up the chemical and then they are placed in the
hive and the chemical is released over a period of time. Some have used
card board or paper or other organic absorbent materials to do the same
thing having the benefit of the bees removing the dispenser over a period
of time. I suspect as the value of honey retreats to the levels of the
olden days more interest will be generated in finding less costly methods
of controlling bee pests if needed at all.
Direct application of chemicals is another method of use, and one that for
sure will in a short time tell you if you have the right mix as with many
of these chemicals a little to much will kill your bees. Most topical
applications are based on information developed that determines the amount
that will kill the target pest and not the host and at the same time its
use will not contaminate the products of the hive. These are determined by
trial and error and the use of a good chemical lab that can work with wax
and honey.
And of course if any Texas, USA, bee keeper were to pass you this
information on how it could be used he could find his self with personal
legal problems as one did experience not so long ago in another public on
line group. You see our bee cops are also part of the thought police at
least in Texas and with all its extreme bee keeper regulation has manage to
spread the Tex-Mex Afro bee and "killer" fire ants all the way to California.
ttul, the OLd Drone
Los Banos, California
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August 26, 1998 AFRICAN BEES SOUTH OF THE BORDER
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: AFRICAN BEES SOUTH OF THE BORDER
Question for Andy: HAS ANYONE HEARD HOW THE AFRICAN BEES HAVE DONE
AS FAR AS PEOPLE AND CROPS ALONG WITH ANIMALS SOUTH OF THE BORDER?
In Mexico they are killing everything within flight range of several miles,
please send relief money fast, as it was in the beginning and will be at
the end. More to consider, the bees of Northern Mexico have always been
aggressive and many beekeepers in the past have considered this an
advantage as it kept unauthorized people away from the bees. It was
possible to pay a little here and a little there and keep your bees right
along the road without any problems. Today from what has been reported by
BS and is available on line to read, Northern Mexican bees have all of a
sudden become much more aggressive in their behavior and are all 100%
Africanized.
As far as in the US, in California they do well at pollinating the almonds
but must be moved out soon as the bloom is done to protect irrigators and
other farm workers. This for most beekeepers is something we have wanted to
do for years but the almond growers insist that we stay until the last
blossom falls which do NOT set fruit. With the fear and reality of the
African bee hybrids, fire ants, and the like farmers are not as sure they
want the bees in their crops any longer then necessary because of the
liability. If this trends continues beekeepers will have more time to do
beekeeping in the spring here in California or at some other location.
There is an information overload about the so called Africanized bees try
this Ural for a sample:
http://groupweb.com/eco/bees.htm
ttul, the OLd Drone
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(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
August 25, 1998 ...Formic Acid and Apistan Strips
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: What are the methods to treate bees with Formic Acid
Hi Dale,
You asked: What are the techniques currently being used with Formic Acid?
In the US NO use of Formic Acid to control bee pests is permitted at this
time. The product that may ask for approval is a single application package
of Formic Acid in a gel form. The beekeeper or applicator will have to put
the package inside the hive and split or open it to release the fumes. He
will then after the recommended period of time return and remove the
packaging material and residue.
What are the treatment plans that a professional beekeeper with a mite
problem uses?
For the use of Formic Acid and its different forms of use outside of the
USA I will leave it for those with the experience to say. The possibilities
are only limited by ones imagination and local regulations when one can use
the real thing which may be sprayed, evaporated in the hive, mixed in a
foaming or gel agent, you name it. Is it a considered the valuable tool
that some would like you to think it is....I think not?
You also said: Thanks if you have an answer you can share, I have five
hives in central Indiana with five more on order for next year...
For your size operation I would suggest you stay on the righteous path and
use whatever is prescribed in your area which for most in the US is the
Apistan strips BUT ONLY IF YOU HAVE VARROA MITES!
ttul, the OLd Drone
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August 21, 1998 ...More Regulatory Outrages from Andy
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Bees and Cat Death
It's a free country and all is fair when it comes to selling "killer" bees
to the public. We sell newspapers, BS, (bee science), beekeeper
regulation, cheep farm chemicals that may or may not work at inflated
prices, and now comes another effort to sell poorly designed bee veils. IMHO.
It just boils my blood every time I see fancy bee ads in our bee journals
relating honey, or good beekeeping to farm chemicals and I have for a long
time felt sold out by these publishers who have played a big part in the
hooking of beekeepers on farm chemicals which alone is bad enough but just
the sight of a jar of pure honey and a pesticide strip shows how low we
have all got to allow that use of the good name of pure honey without
beekeeper rebellion. Sure I let my own subscriptions run out but feel I am
the loser by doing so and not the publishers as what's one more lost
subscription they have been going down for years and they still have the
advertising revenues and less publishing costs.
Well now its hit me again, some outfit from Roanoke VA, selling bee vails
and using the super hyped newspaper story's on the "killer" bees to do it
that I have used myself in the Killer Bee & Worm Journal to illustrate the
hype being used to sell newspapers and mislead the public on the danger of
bee keeping. I guess that's the way it is, but I for one will never buy a
bee veil from the "Sting Shield Company", they look like a real rip off
anyway, IMHO. If you have not seen their web site here it is, its a good
one, I won't mention which part did not function but for up to date bee
disaster news and nice maps and graphics give it a hit. Interesting to note
that several bee cop sites link here must be they are happy customers or
maybe something more sinister:
http://www.intrlink.com/users/stingshield/default.html
ttul, the OLd Drone
Los Banos California
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(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
August 13, 1998 Can Bees Kill a Cat?
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Bees and Cat Death
Rune wrote:
>Question is can cats die from bee stings? If she played with some near the
>front of the hive, maybe several stung here, and this was too much?
>Has anybody any experience with cats or other animals close to hives? May
>they become allergic?
Hi Rune,
Sorry to read about your kitten. I have never heard of a cat being allergic
to bees and being killed because of bee stings, but I am sure it is
possible. I did have a problem with a family of skunks at one time that I
found the mother and her three kittens dead. They were covered with bees
and I am sure they died from the bee stings which is not the norm as I have
watched other skunks scratch on the hives and then pick and eat the bees
from their fur for hours at a time and I am sure they were getting stung at
the same time.
I once had a long haired black dog that would follow me in the bee yard and
get stung and try to rub off the bees on the hives only collecting more and
I would have to rock him to get him to leave about the time he would be
trying to dig a hole with his noise about the only part of him not covered
by bees. He always came back for more so I guess they did not hurt him that
bad. Had another dog that would hide from the bees in the truck and kill
any that got in with her which saved me a few stings at times.
ttul, the OLd Drone
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August 12, 1998 Bees on TV
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Bees in TV ad
Has anyone noticed the nice ad running on TV for the SureTrade.com, a
on-line stock trading company?
Something does not look right to me, but it could be tired eye's or
something but is not the frame upside down with the honey at the bottom and
the brood at the top?
I guess it makes no difference its really a nice picture and at least its
not showing the "killer" bees running the customers into there homes or
something, but I would think a stock trading company would want to set the
record straight the same as if they made a mistake with someone's trade.
For sure I would not want them working in my bee yard if they don't know
which end is up.
ttul, the OLd Drone
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
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August 12, 1998 Afro-Beetles in Bee Hives
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: No Beetles In Ohio -Forwarded
Bee cops fail in search for Afro-Beetles in Ohio, as reported in the
"Killer Bee and Worm Journal"
It could be that my sources got it wrong, if so I am embarrassed and apologize
to those who feel they were wronged. It also could be that what the beekeepers
involved are finding is not the same as the bee cops or maybe my source was
just being prophetic in the information I used to write on 8.7.98 this
report:
BEENEWS SPECIAL 8.7.98 AFRO-Beetles have been found in six state's and
looking. Damage in most cases is NOT expected to be great and control my be as
easy as moving to new locations,..often. Several controls includes both
chemical and biological. One includes a chemical now used for Fire Ants and
registration could be pending label changes. Some questions have not been
answered such as if damage is greater closer to the coast and the route this
pest used to get to an island off the coast of SC with heavy infestation to
bees there reported? The states are SC, FL, GA, OH, ND, and ME. *editor.
* Of course you may not have read about this in your local newspapers as it is
from un-named sources close to the investigation and invasion.
Additional information on the Small Hive Beetle indicates that the beetles
themselves can live quite a while in the hive but the worms must pupate in the
ground. The ground must be moist, about the same moisture that would support
fishing worms. This would limit the generations produced in many areas of the
country. The worms may also be susceptible to at least two strains of BT. Also
it has been reported that Carbolic Acid a chemical once used to drive the bees
from honey supers is better at driving the adult beetles out of the hives then
the bees. Nothing has been reported on the chemicles now used today in the US
to do the same or their effect on the beetles.
ttul, the OLd Drone
http://beenet.com
August 9, 1998 Swarming Bees
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Swarming in August?
Marc wrote:
>Can bees swarm in August? How can you tell swarming
>behavior from mere mustering of the troops for a good
>honey flow?
Good Question from Marc,
1st swarming can take place anytime of the year that the bees are
active and they become crowed with bees, honey, and/or pollen. In many
areas the bees do swarm more then once and in some areas they do not
swarm in the spring but will swarm later in the summer because of the
timing of plants useful to bees. Beekeepers who move their bees from
South to North many times increase the numbers of swarms and over the
years most have developed methods to prevent this swarming. The most
popular is by making divides with new queens before moving.
In some locations not necessarily the best for honey production such
as coastal areas with warm days alternating with cool fogy days the
bees will swarm out, that is they will keep swarming until nothing is
left behind but a queen cell and a few hundred bees. These yards are
excellent for making increase and if the bees are left alone and only
the swarms caught many times the number of swarms caught will exceed
the original number of hives. Some of these areas are notorious for
NOT catching back mated queens because of the same weather conditions
that may cause them to swarm.
Careful examination of commercial bee hives in California finds queen
cells present all season long. We think of these as supersedure cells
but all outward appearances of the hives will be normal. No signs of a
failing queen such as shot gun brood and the like. Most beekeepers do
not cut this type of cell and for sure queens are being replace
naturally all season long and some of these may swarm in the process
if they become crowded with pollen and/or nectar.
Most think of the swarming behaviors as being caused by crowding by
bees and it may be, we also think that a queen must be present but in
running queen banks of several hundred mated queens and young bees
added every few days from hatching brood I have had these hives swarm
without any queen in the swarm.. It is interesting and exciting, very
exciting if you know the value $$ of 250 queens in a full bank, to
see them take wing filling the air and heading out of town only to
park in a big cluster on a tree limb 50 to 100 yards away. They
usually rest there for up to an hour and then again take flight and
return to the hive. I once had a bank hive that you could set your
clock by as it would take off each afternoon about the same time and
always returned.
In time even an old drone can learn new tricks and all that was needed
to stop this brazer and dangerous activity was to remove one or all of
the gallon feed cans on these hives and cut the sugar with water so
they will blow most of it out each night and not become so crowded.
Old time beekeepers this area used to finish extracting and their bee
work for the year and take of for a month of hunting in October -
November. One year they all got back to find swarms hanging everywhere
as they hit a unheard of late cotton flow and had removed all the
supers so the bees blocked out and swarmed. They started up again and
did not finish extracting until Thanksgiving turkey time.
I once hit a crop of Golden Eye, a cool season wild sunflower, on the
Mexican boarder a flow that only hits every 17 years or so and I never
finished extracting but quit at Christmas as it was cold enough to
make it an impossible job in an area that having heat in the honey
house was never thought of, normally never needed, as the air
temperature is normally warm enough to extract and pump honey as fast
as you can extract it. We did well over 200 pounds per hive anyway and
had hives wanting to swarm to the last day of the flow which in total
was almost a year long and some of the different wild flowers bloomed
three times that normally only bloom once. Beekeeping on the higher
Snorian Desert is a different and as difficult beekeeping as can be
found. Most beekeepers in the area never were able to take real
advantage of this late flow as they had never experienced it before
and by the time they figured it out their bees were so weak from
swarming to do much.
ttul, the OLd Drone
http://beenet.com
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August 5, 1998 Andy talks back to a Canadian censor...
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Afro Beetles
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:46:47 -0400
From: David in Canada
Subject: Re: Another thing to worry about (Afro Beetles!)
> beetles also. It may be the case that freezing grounds will kill off the
> pupal stage of the beetle and the only Northern problem will come from
> hitch hiking beetles in migratory hives. It is NOT KNOWN if beetles will (be
> more than a)
> curiosity to Northern beekeepers, but the short of it is WE DON'T KNOW
> AT THIS TIME! Now doesn't this make all you southern beekeepers want to
> head for the tundra?
>Just one more reason to keep the border between Canada and the U.S.A
>closed. No doubt that will bring howls of anguish!
Subject: My Apology to the Group & Mr. Eyre
>I certainly did not anticipate nor appreciate the insults to my
>nationalistic pride that came pouring forth.
Fellow Bee Keepers & Friends,
WOW, the pot is calling the kettle black...after posting his total
collective thoughts on the subject of RE: "Another thing to worry
about..AFRO-Beetles", in which all he had to say was:
"Just one more reason to keep the border between Canada and the U.S.A
closed. No doubt that will bring howls of anguish!" said David.
Well, maybe we could all think a little more before we post and not make
posts knowing very well and admitting in the post that what we were posting
could be hurtful to others, especially if we can not take what heat our own
posts generate.
I gave back to Mr. Eyre what it seemed to me and others he was asking for.
His and my post added nothing at all to the subject "AFRO-Beetles", and
were at the least gratuitous and now Mr. Eyre in a different voice "howls"
to me personally and in this List expressed more of his own brand of "howls
of anguish!" He wants it both ways and it just don't work that way. He has
a right to express his opinion and I have a right and maybe an obligation
to express my own on his if I think he is wrong. Its called social
intercourse and has nothing to do with his or my pride or national origins
or our citzenship. I hope only that we all have in common being bee keepers
or their friends here.
>Finally I would point out, even with moderation, inflamatory, derogatory
>insulting remarks still get through and if it continues I can forsee the
Bee-L
>being a party of one, both posing and answering it's own questions.
Is Mr. Eyre calling for a vote or just complaining because his original
post was not censored?
I for one am not going to beg anyone with such a thin skin to do anything
they don't want to do. I do not think that my own apology to Mr. Eyre, or
my own censorship or removal from this List would make any difference other
then reduce the band width used and produce a void but no sucking sounds. I
can not speak for Mr. Eyre, an experienced poster, other then to offer some
advice to him and others and that is if you find your own words unpalatable
don't post them and you won't have to eat them.
ttul, the OLd Drone
Andy Nachbaur
Los Banos, California
Love Letters to:andy.nachbaur@calwest.net
Hate Mail to:andy.nachbaur@thegrid.net
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August 5, 1998 Andy Defines Canadian Beekeepers
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Weevil Eradication
A Canadian beekeeper wrote:
>Just one more reason to keep the border between Canada and the U.S.A
>closed. No doubt that will bring howls of anguish!
Is this one of those anguish howls you asked for?
Is your border really "closed"? You could not prove it by me other than in
the spring my neighbors don't have any Canadian beekeepers that they have
to pay while training them on which end of the hive tool is up. One thing
about them you don't have to teach 'em how to light a smoker you just have
to have good fire insurance on your bee hives and trucks.
You could never tell that the border was closed from this vantage point -
judging by the amount of Canadian honey and sometimes honey that is not
Canadian shipped from Canada that is in our markets, or the nice made in US
bee equipment that is helping move bees and extract honey in Canada. As for
the marketing of bees and queens it is nice to know that the Canadian
beekeeper can pay what they are paying to fly them in from the other side
of the world so if the border ever does open the US bee breeder can start
to make some real money.
But you are right keep that border closed so if and when you ever need to
pasture your bees south of it or want to make some pocket money pollinating
crops this side of the border you can but you can't take your bees home,
that's too bad.
It always is nice to know how our brother beekeepers who wanted so much to
be US trading partners are happy when a new bee disaster hits their
neighbors. Gosh I sure hope the Mexican honey crop is big this year so the
price drops to new lows so the Canadian honey producer has to eat their own
honey. You know if we could close the US border to all honey imports US
honey would be hard to find, now that makes sense.
In any case I am sure the closing of the border which is a one way closure
has hurt more Canadian beekeepers than US beekeepers judging from the
number of failed bee operations in Canada since it was closed and if that's
the way Canadian beekeepers want it then who are we in the US to object.
Every bee man should have the right to fail, it's the democratic way, and if
they can make laws to speed the process up more power too 'em.
ttul, the OLd Drone
July 17, 1998 Weevil Eradication Program
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Weevil Eradication
Bill wrote:
>Thanks all for responding. Yesterday I had a meeting with the BWEP
>bee and environmental coordinator and the USDA representative and
Hi Bill,
Sounds like you are doing more then most beekeepers get the chance to do.
I still would document the condition of my bees before any loss and I would
get pictures of as many of these government men who are working near or in
your bee yards as by their interest they are acknowledging what they are
doing is putting what you do at risk and your bees at risk or they would
not be doing it as you are not a chemical man or cotton grower. If you do
have a big loss you will be surprised how fast they disappear and how fast
their mission will change. (They will swear they were only trying to
demonstrate to you that what they are doing could cause you damage and you
should have protected yourself.) The idea that bee loss is from drift is
an example of they way they think and putting the blame on someone else and
something they don't control. If you have a loss it will be because of the
chemical they are using drifting or not and their program that I repeat
will NOT do what they say it will and that is "eradicate" anything but your
bees and beneficial insects, fish, birds, and harm people. They will be
back next year with another program.
>... So this should suggest my feeling about Al Jr.
If only us good beekeepers and friends ran the government this country
would indeed be in better shape and our bees would be safer but they don't
and it sometimes become's necessary to work with people you would not
necessarily want in your home or around your kids. Sucking up to ALgore or
any other government official must be looked at in the light of protecting
your bees from government sponsored damage, both are repulsive to most
normal people.
BTW, how are your bees doing now anyway? It would be a good idea to find a
copy of "Babies Names" and name all your hives like you would your
children. This is much more impressive to a jury in court when the other
side tries to put a low value on your bee hives as a whole when you know
that the loss of one is just like losing a family member. I would use
biblical names if I lived in your area.
ttul, the OLd Drone
http://beenet.com/bnews.htm
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July 16, 1998 Moving Bee Hives
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Hive Move
A beekeeper asked Andy:
>It has become necessary for me to immediately move one of my hives to
>another yard. My problem is that there is a large cluster of bees on the
>landing board and adjacent area every night. Does anyone have a method of
>moving hives such as this while retaining the exterior cluster ?
Get an early start, take a clean garden sprayer and extra water. Gently
spray the bees on the outside of the hive, repeat as necessary until they
go in. Save some water to spray them before unloading. You still will need
to smoke them but they should be able to use the water to cool the hive
enough to not hang out on the porch. This also works to some extent with
bees that are aggressive in the heat and you want to inspect them.
ttul, the OLd Drone
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July 16, 1998 Feeding Bees
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: feeding syrup
A beekeeper wrote to Andy:
>...it's my understanding that bee's have invertase in their
>stomach which inverts sucrose (table sugar) to fructose and glucose.
>Inverted sugar is sweeter than sucrose.
Its true bees can invert sucrose but it will in time use them up. Its
better to feed sugar that is already a inverted sugar and not burn your
bees out.
>Hence, it is impossible for bees to store the syrup that I feed them as
>sucrose syrup. The bees may store the syrup that I feed them, but it
>will be modified/inverted and sweeter than the syrup that I feed them.
Yes this also is true it becomes a super saturated solution of sugar syrup.
The bees will mix it with nectar from flowers blooming in your area.
>With that in mind, I have no hesitation to continue to feed the bees
>syrup as long as they take it.
This is OK with me but it could be less expensive to buy honey for your
table and to feed your bees as after you feed your bees all this sugar
anything you remover from your hive will be OK for you to eat but it will
not be legal to sell it as "Honey" or "Pure Honey" as it will remain a
product not unlike manufactured sugar syrup that you can buy for a fraction
of the cost of honey ready to eat.
It would be interesting to see how much sugar syrup one hive will take. I
am sure it would be in the hundreds of gallons and compare that to what you
could recover which would be a small percentage of what they would take in
and could even approach zero.
Good Luck,
ttul, the OLd Drone
http://beenet.com
July 15, 1998 Weevil Eradication Program
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Boil Weevil Eradication Program
Bill wrote:
>Tennessee is going to spry from planes ULV Malthion on every acre of
>cotton in the southwestern part of the state.
>will spray up until October. My question is how much loss should I
>expect. Moving all of my 100 hives is out of the question because I
>have no place to move them that cotton is not within foraging distance.
Hi Bill,
Its always hard to answer these kind of questions as it makes me feel like
someone selling a dyeing cancer patient a pre arrange funeral.
As to the question of what loss to expect I would if I were you not only
expect NO loss I would insist on it.
When birds, bees, fish, people or any non target species is damaged by any
regulated chemical applied by anyone it is in itself an unlawful use and
act, and you should have every expectation of full re numeration regardless
of your own interests if you own the property damaged.
You should not care what chemical it is or how it is used as long as it
does not damage your property, or injure your personal well being.
The above is easy said but now you have some obligations to document your
own loss. At one time this was impossible for the ordinary person but today
it is much easier if you follow some easy rules which include an assessment
of the actual condition of your bees before the loss. Get your local
friendly bee inspector to come out and make a 100% inspection of all your
hives right now before the loss would be one step you could take. It is not
necessary to let it be know why you are doing this other then looking for
pests, or disease. Maybe its time to search your hives for the Killer AFRO
wax beetles. Make a note of their condition as to number of bees, brood and
laying queens. Don't worry if they are in sorry shape now and improve
between now and the end of October you will not have to pay for the cotton
spraying.
I would have and use a video camera, if you don't have one now is the time
to get one. I once paid for a new Camera in one hour in a pesticide damage
situation that just could never happen but few experts can explain away
pictures that show dead bees. Always have someone with you when taking
samples or pictures and if you can it should be someone without an interest
in your bees or personal welfare unless they work for the Welfare
Department or something.
If you have loss take samples of fresh killed bees and all the pollen you
can find. I would even put on a pollen trap in every yard now just to have
something that is easy to analyze for chemicals. You can label and freeze
any samples and again it is better to have a disinterested party take and
store the samples if you can, in any case have a witness along with any
film exposed or samples taken. If there are any public schools within a few
miles of your bees and the crops sprayed take plant samples and always
identify your bee yards by the distance from the closest school if you can.
Churches, public parks, fishing holes would be a 2nd choice if you lack
schools. Pesticides can be detected on most plants especially ones with a
waxy coating on the leaves or plants closely related to animal forage
plants such as clovers. Samples need not be big, I have used a old ticket
punch that cuts out small disks from the plant leaves like a leaf cutter
bee and they worked great as long as you get a hundred or so. Anyway if you
are going to do this you should get with the lab that will run the samples
to see what their requirements are. I would stay away from any government
labs or send duplicate samples to a private lab for obvious reasons.
If you do all the above I can guarantee that the word will get around and
you will be the most hated beekeeper in your area but you may find that
your bees will not be damaged if they are not burned up from fire escaping
from the cross burning in your bee yards. But if you never had a friend in
the pesticide business you would not suffer from it as for the most part
they do not make good friends anyway. Here in California the Bee Cops are
also the Pesticide Regulators and sleep in the same bed with the chemical
industry so we have lost lots of bees. Anyone who has been in the bee
business has replaced all of their hives once every twenty years because of
the regulated use of pesticides and some more. Its always a case of the
value of the bees vs the value of the crop being protected. Considering
that its the same with the poor people who work on the farms what can we
expect anyway.
The last time someone deliberately sprayed a crew of farm workers picking
tomatoes here they took his licence away for 90 days....the next winter
when its too foggy to even find the air field let alone spray crops like
there were any to spray in the winter. The only good thing about crop
dusters is they don't live very long, if they pesticides don't kill em the
crash does. Years ago we had a old beekeeper who used to shoot at them when
ever they flew over his bees which all were kept around his home. They
complained to the authorities and the next night the old plane burned up.
Never could prove who did it but a five gallon honey can was found in the
cockpit of the burned out plane. They did haul the beekeeper off to the
funny farm. He had a good rest on the county and returned a new man with a
special sparkle in his eyes which lasted I am told until he moved off to
better bee pasture in Heaven. I learned a lot from this crazy old Russian
bee man, and a lot more about the law and the bravest and dumbest thing I
ever did was to drive my old pickup straight down the road one day that was
being used in violation of the law for a crop duster landing strip. I was
never so shocked in my life and relieved to see that plane take the briar
ditch, and I never realized just how big those old crop dusters were until
seeing this one coming down the highway right at me and to see it in the
ditch still brings a smile to my face. The pilot got out and ran over to me
screaming and yelling about my family roots and how he would get me and my
bees. But I went to the state house the next day and that was the last crop
duster to ever use a public road in our county and I could not tell the
difference in my bees as they were killing them anyway or I would have not
been in a frame of mind to do something so stupid. You see he also
complained to the local bee pesticide cops and told them how close I had
come to being killed and made my case for me at the state house as that was
the reason crop dusters and cars don't use the same roads plus the fact the
duster's was not paying any gas tax to support the damage being done to the
roads anyway.
Now the bad news. MALATHION itself is not a good bee killer, or even a good
boil weevil killer, but repeated applications will increase the damage done
to honeybees matters not how carefully done. Ultra Low Volume is just using
less water or carrier so that more pure insecticide can be loaded in the
sprayer reducing the cost. There is some BS about how bigger the drops are
or is it smaller and they do less damage but it is BS. More acres can be
treated with each load, more loads can be sprayed and that's the reason its
used, it the money that talks. The bad news about this is that it makes it
X times more toxic if birds, bees, fish, or your kids are exposed to it.
But it is cheaper to use.
In ending I would say ULV MALATHION can be used without bee loss. (I read
that in some of their advertisements.) Don't believe it. I would also say
that there are chemicals that are even worse as small amounts of them will
cause your hives to die out next winter but at the time of application no
big loss will be seen, at least with the malathion you should be able to
see and document the loss at the time it is used. Bees get very aggressive
during exposure to malathion and many other chemicals at the time they are
exposed so have your smoker and veil handy before going into your bee yards.
I wish you luck, I hope when all is said and done you can report back that
your bees were not damaged and everything worked out great. Sorry for
turning this post into a book, the bees make me do it.
Between now and then if I were you I would get in touch with ALgore the
environmentalist as most of these state programs are political favors being
paid back by state and federal agricultural regulators to chemical
company's, applicators, or farmers and really have no real benefit as they
seldom reduce the target pest and the crop suffers the same damage with or
without them and sometimes more because of them, such as a reduction of
honeybees in cotton can reduce the seed yield by 15%+.
ttul, the OLd Drone
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
in any form, or to print for any use.
(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
July 13, 1998 Mean Bees
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: getting mean
Andy wrote:
>And no, I don't have the answers. At this point, I simply know that saying
>that the bees rush home due to changes in barometric pressure is an overly
>simplistic assumption that doesn't hold up when you can see the actual
>responses of bees correlated with weather.
Hay Guys, Gals, and bee keepers too,
The point is I never said that the bees rush home or do I know of any
beekeeper who has ever said to me or that I even overheard anyone saying
the "bees rush home because of any barometric change". I have seen bees do
many things but never seen them rush home because of any barometric change.
If that was true the coast would be unfit for bees as almost every day
there are differences between AM and PM barometric reading. What I am
saying is that beekeepers including myself who have a great deal of hands
on experience working their bees report that in their experience they can
tell the beautiful day we are enjoying one day is going to change the next
because of the aggressive behavior of their bees. This is a "fact" it may
not be the same everyplace, of that I am sure, but its unfair and not
scientific to flatly say this is wrong because anyone else has observed
something different.
I have no argument that what Jerry is doing, in fact I think it is the
greatest, and doing it in as many places and with as much technical
equipment may make it the fact for the place, time, and conditions it was
done but it is wrong to say that I or any beekeeper who reports what we
have observed is not the way we observed it, without walking in our shoes,
which many may have a lot of catching up if they want to do that as many of
these coastal bee location are being black toped and roofed over.
>Our weather station doesn't include light intensity. The Alpha system
>covers this information plus hive temperatures, weight changes, RH, etc.
>One of these days, we will add an Alpha system to our observation hive.
>And yes Andy, we do have electronic hives at different elevations and in
>different parts of the country. We don't post all of this to the web - we
>doubt that most beekeepers want to look at hundreds of Mb of data per day.
>We can make this information available to those who want to work with it.
There is nothing wrong with any of this and I support your good work and
you for sure you are developing and should have some interesting and useful
data that may take years of careful study to understand....But I wonder if
then we will know anything different other then what I know from the use of
my rear end and noise. It won't change anything, a day before a weather
change on the coast of central California beekeepers will know because they
are experiencing a behavioral change in their bees.
I suspect that beekeepers who are young now will someday be old and they
also will be using their own rear ends and noises to do the same thing.
In any case I surrender, you are right, what I observed was only an
aberration and I misunderstood it. Oh, BTW my queen nucs are really
aggressive today and.......will be tomorrow as they don't have laying
queens, and I can prove it to anybody that wants a few stings. But then its
100+ degrees in the shade and the ants are bothering them and they are all
hanging out on the front of their nuc boxes so my proof is a little weak.
Anyway want to talk about how bees react during earthquakes as I also have
first hand observations on that having kept bees at one time on a very
active fault...that was active enough to find the beehives not in the same
neat lines a week or two after unloading them because of the almost daily
ground movement.
ttul, the OLd Drone
July 11, 1998 Mean Bees
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Fwd: Re: getting mean
Jerry wrote:
>>>from storm fronts moving about. In many areas beekeepers are able to
>>>predict tomorrows weather change by the behavior of their bees
>>Andy goes on to say that this may be a reflection of floral responses.
>>Our electronic systems clearly demonstrate that bees know when storms are
Hi Jerry, Bee Keepers & Friends,
I ain't got no systems other then the seat of my pants and the end of my
noise. When I am working the bees bent over a hive and a bee comes out and
lands tail up on the end of my noise everything else being equal I grab for
a bee veil after pulling the stinger out of my noise. I don't need no
electronic gismo's to tell me that I should have put my veil on before
opening the hive.
>>We can find days when the pressure drops and the bees come home. But we
>>find as many or more days when the pressure is bouncing around or going up
>>and the bees are still racing home. So -- like many explanations of bee
>>behavior, the old "atmospheric pressure" answer is not correct. Bees may
>>take pressure into consideration, but other factors must be factored in by
>>the bees.
Yes for sure this is a complicated subject and many factors in your
experience are not clearly defined and could be area specific and do
involve more then one science and need more study including replication at
other sites and locations using many different flavors of bees and plants
and even then it my be there is an exception that explains what other
beekeepers have seen in their bees...kinda cheeky aren't I.
I can assure all that I do not expect to be able to explain all that I have
felt or seen in my bee yards over the years but at the same time I can say
for a fact that at least on the coast of Monterey County California many
beekeepers over a extended period of time, 70+ years, in the winter and
spring, have been able to predict with an great accuracy that is as good
or better then the information provided by the weather bureau, the changing
of the weather before it happens by the temperament of their bees.
In this area these are real life, real time, facts, if not good science
that have not been explained by any science other the changes expressed by
the flowering plants that grow at the time of year in these locations the
observations were made that seem to correspond with early barometric
pressure changes that come before any weather front moves in. It does not
have to follow that these reports are mistaken or false because the same
changes do no cause the same response in bees in any other area and only
makes it of less value for the average beekeeper who makes no claim to
being a scientist to make personal observations of his bees or report them
to others and that why I am writing this reply to my friend Jerry the bee
scientist and you all.
It is well enough to announce that this is not that fact, which may be, but
that does little to explain what many others have experienced. It would be
better to say what caused what has been experienced as above and then say
it was caused by this or that and not the pressure changes. I am not in any
way challenging what Jerry reports as scientific fact in his area or areas
of study that do not include my own areas and I would say maybe much more
is to bee learned.
At the same time the keeping of the same bees on the Mexican boarder area
of south western Arizona would not be define by the bees temperament in a
change of the weather because there is NO time that the bees would not come
out and sting my rear end and noise as I struggle to put my veil on even if
I had old truck tires burning in my smoker. Both of these experiences are
verifiable and repeatable at these locations so they could be considered
more then just one old beekeeper's observation and its a little premature
to say these observations are correct or not correct without walking in the
shoes of those with the experience and the fat lips.
>>If you wish, start following the weather and our observation hive. Had a
>>good illustration of a pressure drop, bees come home the other day - so if
>>you find that one day, you could argue that point. But, look at lots of
>>days and make up your own mind.
I don't know nothing but I would suggest any environmental measurement of
bee flight would require some additional information I have not found on
your sight such as light polarization and intensity measurements which may
explain why your bees behavior is different from those in other places as
measured by my noise and the seat of my pants. From working bees in the
higher elevations of Colorado I did see some flight behavioral differences
not explained by experiences with bees in sea level California or the
Sonora desert of SW Arizona beekeeping. I also had some performance
denigration myself for the first day or so as this sea level beekeeper gave
up his sea legs for mountain goat one's.
In any case my observations are just that and only good for the area and
time I made then and were not intended to be hard and fast rules of science
as IMHO the first rule of bee science is that there will be an exception to
all rules so I don't report anymore then observations which may or may not
be the same in any other bees or bee yards.
The only hard and fast Rule that follows beekeepers like a dark cloud is
that if there is any bee disease, pest, or predator that your bees don't
have just wait awhile and you will.
ttul, Andy-
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(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
June 25, 1998 Varroa Mites and Chemicals
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Mites
Andy replies to comments from another
beekeeper on the subject of mites...
At 02:23 PM 6/25/98 -0400, you wrote:
>When checking the brood chamber of the smaller hive I noticed numerous
>little mites running about on top of the frames. Now I am not sure what
>kind of mites these are or if they even effect the bees. I don't think
>the smaller hive will produce any honey this year but the larger hive is
>producing honey now.
Hi,
Sometimes in a weak hive other mites and other insects will be noticed when
the hive is first opened after a long period of (beenign neglect). Most all
the mites found in bee hives are light sensitive and will scurry for cover
when exposed to the light of day. If the mites are pin head sized, reddish
brown, and oval in shape they may be varroa mites. To make sure you could
check to see if you can find some attached to the bees themselves and on
the pupa of any drone brood between the supers, (if any).
> My question is should I do some kind of mite
>treatment now ? If so what can I use during the honey flow.
If you do not intend to use the honey, other then to feed that hive, from
the smaller hive you could treat it at any time using the recommended
number of strips and length of time. I would reduce it to a single, if
possible, and use the number of strips recommended.
I would warn that if the hive is already weak because of a old or failing
queen, and has mites, it could be more economical to rebuild the hive with
a nuc or divide and a young queen after destroying the old bees and queen
and putting the original hive and frames in storage for a length of time so
that all mites are dead. Thirty days is reasonable and seven will do the
job for most hives. Sounds extreme but I am talking economics knowing full
well that some would spend a $1,000. on health care for a stray cat because
they have money and love cats, and I would not.
From the bigger hive I assume you are planing on using the honey, you
should wait to treat until you have removed the honey if you intend to
treat it. This not only reduces the far out chance that you will get
harmful chemicals in the honey but will reduce the area that needs to be
treated and increase the effectives of the treatment and reduce the costs.
If you are NOT going to consume the honey, I still would remove the honey
before treatment.
I would add that if the hive is in all other respects "healthy" and has
survived with a low level of mite infestation or no visual mites I would
consider NOT treating it at all. IMHO: Prophylactic treatments for mites is
a waste of money and may be the good bee farming practice as preached by
the majority and the chemical dusty's but only gets you a seat on the
pesticide merry-go-around like most every other farmer. You will not be
alone!
You may be wondering how come the smaller hive has Varroa mites or more
mites then the larger hive?
All hives that have mites if they collapse for any reason will have more
mites at the end then at the beginning of the collapse. So a 2nd swarm with
less and maybe older bees would have more mites then a prime swarm. No
different then a flattened cat that does not die right away, when it does
die depending on the length of time it lingers on, it will have a
population of flea's that anyone who does not know its history prior to its
death will say the flea's surely killed that flat cat when you and I know
it died because of the Mac truck that made it a flat cat in the first
place. Treatment of the cats flea's will reduce their numbers to zero but
will not overcome the fact that the flat cat is going to die sooner then
later.
The state of the art is such that it is not know how many mites per 100 or
1,000 bees should be a treatment level. It has never been demonstrated that
adding any number of varroa mites to a healthy hive has any dramatic effect
on that hive. And because all honeybees have several defence mechanisms
against mites some could be afflicted less then others, or not at all.
The "rule" in beekeeping is "that for every rule there is an exception".
As for the treatment of bees for Varroa mites I believe that the majority
of beekeepers in the US have been stuck on the pesticide merry-go-around
and will not easily find a way off because their government regulators do
not believe they are mature enough to use any farm chemicals reasonably and
has collaborated with the chemical industry to keep them hooked on
chemicals by forcing them to use a few products that do not work as
advertised and are inflated in price by 1000x above what they should cost.
Others say its the "American" Way,.. *(because of our censors I have
removed the short graphic description of what the "American" Way really has
become.)*, but if you get em down you stick it too em, and if you can pay
your government to protect you in doing it, you can charge em any amount
for the pleasure you get from doing it to them. Thats the new "American"
way...today its called "value added".
My hope that a few so called "hobby" beekeepers will follow a different
road and resist using chemicals at all no matter what any good bee
regulator or bee doctor tells you. (If its the LAW I advise all to follow
it.)
My gut feeling is it will be years before the commercial bee industry wakes
up and does the same even if the last Varroa mite on earth was to have
disappeared or all bee hives were full and healthy.
Good Luck,
ttul, the OLd Drone
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(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
June 11, 1998 Government Researchers Again
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Disturbing News Story - Hornfaced Bees
Rory wrote:
>Today I saw this in my local paper. What is the USDA bee lab thinking???
>http://www.centredaily.com/features/story3.htm
Hi Rory, & Bee Keeping Friends,
1st, for sure these PR puff story's on wild bees have as a purpose to
generate interest in continuing support for aging high cost USDA government
research at small inefficient GI labs across the country that have little
or no contact with main stream beekeeping or agriculture, for that matter,
that should have been ended years ago with the "beekeeper support programs".
We all would be better off if these labs were closed as they have a long
history of creating false negative narrations about the honey bee keeping
"industry" which is an industry while they are nothing more then bee
keeping hobbyists playing a the public's expense. It is interesting to note
that the funding for these projects are hidden in Federal legislation such
as the "Honey Promotion Bill", as they can not stand on their own or the
pass the test of "daylight" or review, and all are now finding that to bite
(sting) the bee keepers hand (mostly backside) is not good public policy as
we honey bee keepers are the one's that are asked by the public and
legislature about the creditability of these PR story's.
2nd, some of the information provided by these labs is so close to being
inaccurate they boarder on being just plain lies. There is no denying that
these wild bees are interesting but the best of them do not stand up in the
public market place. The "alfalfa" leaf cutter bees is still the only so
called "wild bee" that enjoys any popularity in field crops supplemental
pollination and it has serious health problems and is considered by many in
the public a pest insect because of the damage it does to ornamentals when
it enters the back yard environment. Some species of "bumble bees" are
doing well in green house pollination at inflated costs to growers and in
the big picture of who gets what to eat in this world are of little total
importance. Other favorites of the day are the "blue orchard" bee and I am
sure the "horned face bee" fits into this category of individual bee
pollinators that outside of their favored environs are not dependable as
pollinators in commercial pollination of orchards because of their own life
cycle which are not the same as most of agricultures which could benefit by
their presence.
I have worked with the "leaf cutter" bees and co-discovered, (I did not
know what I had.), a local sub species that gained notoriety as the
"killer" leaf cutter bees years back because of their stinging behavior and
aggressive expansion traits. Most all of these wild bees have self
protection methods and many will sting and for those who are sensitive can
be as deadly as the dreaded killer bee. Its mostly a case of their
populations being small resulting human exposure is low, but if you had
populations needed for commercial pollination of orchards and fields the
odds would change.
I have a unused "bumble" bee nest box as we have very low populations here
and have failed to see my "blue orchard" bees increase in populations over
several seasons. Maybe its the competition from the honeybees in this area
and until they have all disappeared instead of the steady increase of the
last 50 years the wild bees will suffer in total numbers. The increase in
honey bee populations here is a direct results in their use for pollination
and not because the price of honey or honey yields have increased as they
have not and if honey were priced on a parity of 50 years ago it would be
bringing the producer an excess of $2.50 US per pound today. Top price
today is 1/3 of that and yields have dropped from a case or two of honey
per hive average year, (120-240 pounds), to about 30 pounds this area.
Beekeepers here do make more honey per hive by moving their bees to other
areas in state and out of state. They trade fuel oil for honey yield in
most cases, but are able to increase the per hive yield to 100 or more
pounds per season.
But the facts are the wild bees are here, they are interesting or people
like me would not have them, but they are not replacements for honey bees
and those in public service who call themselves scientist of one flavor or
another who are trying to sell them as that to the public have lost my
respect and support.
Interesting and beneficial they are, in their place, but not as a
replacement for honey bees and their keepers and if there is a fight
between bee keepers who pollinate crops I stand with those who keep honey
bees who have demonstrated for more then 50 years with successful
management for crop pollination. For years none of these wild bee keepers
have ever taken a positive stand on any issue concerning honey bee keepers
and for the most have tried to capitalize on our problems with less then
honest hot gas about their own abilities which few delivering more then the
annual inflated PR report to the press.
ttul, the OLd Drone
February 12, 1998 Alternate Varroa Mite Controls
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: HARD SMOKE
"Hard Smoke' is what beekeepers do when their bees get out of control. We
have all done it and sometimes in the heat of the battle a little fire
comes out and oops some wings get flamed and a few handful of bees are
prematurely aged and sent off to a better life.
Today in many places in the bee world the varroa mite continues to cause
beekeepers to Hard Smoke.
Years ago, before the first ugly American beekeeper had discovered the first
vampire mite on a bee attracted to the light of a window in his honey barn,
European beekeepers had killed more bees controlling varroa mites and tried
almost all agricultural chemicals on their bees than has been documented
killed by the mites they targeted for death. (Some beekeepers also were
able to degrade their own personal health in the effort to kill varroa
mites and all should be aware that danger is real.)
Of course history always repeats itself and I have held back a little on
some of the horror stories passed on to me by US commercial beekeepers from
all areas of the US because what they do to their own bees is really
none of my business and repeating this kind of antecdotal information can
cause problems to otherwise innocent and good people. Beekeepers who must
make a living from bees have a real problem balancing that need with their
responsibility of being good citizens - all these laws, rules, regulations,
and bee research never seem to take into consideration that beekeeper can
not wait years and years for the paper work to clear whatever committee
when the bees they need to make a living to live like normal people are
today's needs, so short cuts are made.
We all live with the fear that some chemical will get into someone's honey
and cause a problem for all. Of course you are right but at the same time
there are private interests outside of the honey production side of the
industry that are also concerned and do check bulk honey for adulteration
and farm chemicals, and they do find these cheerless and adulteration in
honey and because that honey is returned to the producer and any
information that is required by law to be passed on to the Pure Food & Drug
Administration and other government agencies is passed on, only a very
small amount of the total honey produced in the US is found to be
contaminated or adulterated as no honey producer can afford to not be able
to sell his crop. It is no different for imported honey which is also
checked by bulk purchasers and foreign honey is found to be contaminated,
adulterated, or with farm chemicals and it is also rejected from sale. This
also is a small percentage of the total amount imported because of the high
costs involved to those who are caught. So we do have some protection from
government and private interests checking our honey...
Well let me tell you, yes I get reports of beekeepers doing some outlandish
things to protect their bees and using other then prescribed methods to
control the varroa mites resulting not in the contamination of their farm
production but for sure causing the complete loss of their hives sometimes
in numbers of 1,000 or more hives, dead, dead, at one time. Some of these
losses were not because they were not able to control mites by legal
methods but to pinch a penny or just out of curiosity and bad judgement,
but more and more are reporting the failure of the legal and prescribed
chemical in controlling mites, or using the prescribed chemical and
following the directions and still having the bees go to hell in a hand
basket.
It is not really clear which it is. I suspect the later, but in any case
beekeepers for whatever reason are having a real problem today with mites
in some areas or operations that can not be met by the prescribed and
lawful method of control and are using unapproved chemicals. It is not a
general problem, yet, and I still think this loss is not all because of T
or V mites, but it is a growing problem and it is real to those who are
suffering.
One case may shine a little light on what they are up against. A
beekeeper picked up a load (500 hives) in Florida that had been treated
lawfully and found on inspecting them, prior to loading them out, to be
infested with numbers of mites that exceeded anything he had ever
experienced, multiple varroa mites on every bee. He had to move them so
assigned one man to smoke them and another to spray the entrances with an
no longer approved chemical as they were being loaded. When these bees
arrived at their out of state destination in the south west after a day and
half on the truck they were unloaded. Close examination found NO dead bees
out of the normal wind damage but so many varroa mites had died and were
kicked out by the bees in transit that the tops of the hives on the bottom
tier were covered as was the bed of the truck. I wish I had a picture
because words can not describe what was seen, except his bee hive tops and
the truck were carpeted red with dead mites. In this case without the
unlawful treatment these bees would all be dead today instead of having
taken another long trip on the semi truck and pollinating almonds in
California before making the trip back to the south west and finally ending
up in the north for the clover flow...
Is this beekeeper a criminal and threat to all other beekeepers and the
good name of honey? Well if he were to get caught you sure better believe
that is what the bee police will testify too in court at his trial and I
guess some would say he got what he deserved if here were locked away from
the rest of the beekeepers, but I say to all we may be entering into a time
when it is easier for the few who would see all honey bees destroyed by
pestilence get their wish and hard times for those who wish only to have
healthy bees for commerce or hobby and I see no way that someday we may all
be outlaws if we wish to continue. I just hope these beekeepers who are
doing these things are more clever on covering them up then our/your
President has been keeping his thing covered up. In any case don't ask for
names or even chemicals involved - if you are that interested come to
California the next few weeks. Almost every commercial beekeeper in the US
who has his bees on wheels is here and everyone of them has a set of these
Hard Smoke stories. A keg of nails dropped on Highway 99 would catch an
easy 20 to 30 truck loads of bees per hour after dark, or look for the real
cheap motels that have big dark drug dealing parking lots or just about any
all night coffee shop between Bakersfield and Mt. Shasta, and just look for
the muddiest looking trucks, with the tiredest looking drivers toeing the
newest forklifts covered from mast to rear end with fresh sticky mud.
Beekeeping is a lot of fun!!
ttul, the OLd Drone
* Use tasteful words, You might have to eat them.
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
in any form, or to print for any use.
(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
February 10, 1998 Apistan Resistance
From: Andy Nachbaur
>>The latest (Feb?) issue of American Bee Journal contains an article
documenting fluvalinate resistance in Varroa mites in Florida. V-mites
in infested hives treated with Apistan strips survived the treatments
with no effect. What do you think is happening?<<
Hi Bee Friends,
Several important details are missing in these reports as reviewed here.
One, which of the Varroa mites are they working with? Asian, or European?
It would be nice to know of the other environmental conditions in the
different bee yards tested. There is a world of difference between rearing
insect's and bees in Florida and Arizona because of environmental
differences. My guess would be that a good extra heavy smoking of bees in
Arizona would have a much greater effect on the vampire mites in Arizona and
little effect on the same mites in Florida because of these differences.
Also, some reliable sources report that those who are lucky enough to have
some of the original strips are not having the problem in controlling mites
in Florida which would indicate some product or application change??
The last time I checked strips with other chemicals that do work on varroa
were still available for use on other domestic and farm animals other then
bees. (not registered or permitted for honeybees} I do not know of anyone
using them because I do not know anyone having a problem with Varroa in
this area and all seem to be satisfied with using and re-using their foofoo
strips.
And yes tens of thousands of hives that have been in Florida and Texas are
right now being placed in the Almond Orchards in California. When all,
maybe 800-900,000 hives are in place if you could line them up down the
freeway back to front there would be no reason to have a white line between
Bakersfield and Mt. Shasta in northern California. This action by a few
hundred beekeepers in moving bees into a relatively small area is one of the
wonders of the world of agriculture and the greatest consternation of
honeybees anyplace in the world. It's all mind bogging when you think it all
happens without any government direction and little government interference
because of the billion dollar $$US value of the crop to California
agriculture. These bee hives could be carrying the black plague and no one
in government would interfere with the movement. (Maybe they would burn 'em
all later after the almonds were finished blooming.)
For sure if one of those hives would pass wind it would not take long for
the total to know about it and this is what Bailey and others were warning
us about many years ago, too many bees in one area is a prescription for
disaster. The same for one of those TEX-MEX drones with presidential
aspirations could impregnate one of our very desirable California virgins in
the shade of some almond tree and no one would be the wiser until some
zealous bee cop did a DNA test on the little son's of bee's.
ttul, the OLd Drone
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
in any form, or to print for any use.
(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
February 7, 1998 Andy responds to comments on bee colony hygiene...
From: Andy Nachbar andy.nachbaur@calwest.net
Subject: Are bee hives clean? What about propolis, FGMO and PGMO?
(We have done some editting to this exchange - Ron, Bkprs Homepages)
At 01:18 AM 2/8/98 +0200, M. P. wrote:
>I was not aware that there are hives without propolis, (I saw that some hives
>are well glued and there are others with almost nothing, but a thin layer
>is always there) . If those bees do not use propolis (Do not have
>ingredients or do not know to produce it) are healthy because maybe
>was not yet discovered by Columb to give them flu or use spells
>to cure the evil :)
Hi M. & Bee Friends,
To have propolis you must first have the trees and plants that produce them
and believe it or not there are
many places that are excellent for beekeeping that do not have them so the
bees do not gather propolis, none of the hives because there is none to
gather. I have personally kept bees in both types of areas and if I were
asked I would say the bees are no healthier in the areas of over abundant
propolis then they are in the areas that have little or none at all, but I
would add that they are easier to work both in the field and in the honey
extracting room when there is little or no propolis. We do no understand
all that is to be known about how the bees use propolis but for sure how
they use it and how man would use it in the trade are not necessarily the
same.
>If the hive is unclean, then
>bees walking in that unclean stuff and next in combs cells, will
>make the honey unclean, so unfit for human consumption.!!!
Man has bee eating honey, bees wax, and some of the junk of the hives for
as long as this Old Drone has been alive and except for a very few infants
below the age of two years all seems to have worked out OK for us and the
same was true for the vast majority of the infants who were fed small
amounts of honey until a few years back when a over zealous public health
bureaucrat did a snow job on the public and took the bee industry through
the courts. We ended up paying for hand outs that pedo doctors give out
with their bills warning new Mom's not to feed honey to their babies. Lucky
for us babies never have been big consumers of honey or we all would be in
a world of hurt.. Today in the USA those same unexplained crib deaths that
make it hot for beekeepers is now said to be the action of murderous
parents that don't want kids which also is a lot of horse poky...
You are the first that I have read that would make this argument about the
hive itself being clean or not as having anything at all to do with the
honey produced from that hive. Some areas of the world still have
beekeepers who keep bees in hives made of clay sealed up with mud and
they consume all the honey their bees produce with no reported problems.
>Be careful with such statements, because if will get to the ears
>of those who decide what is "eatable" and what is not will let you to
>sell the honey only if :
Well so be it, take my word for it HONEY is a natural food and like most
natural food it contains some things that are not normally considered in
themselves as good. Most beekeepers take care in settling and straining
their honey to remove some of the bigger things that naturally are found in
honey. Some of these things are naturally found in honey because of the
lack of care by the beekeepers and others are in the dust of our environment.
No matter what I say, others will make of it what they want, but I am not
going to say something I know is not true just because of some danger
someone may not understand. It is true I don't always express myself in a
way that all can understand but as far as the good name of our Honey goes
there have been evil forces at work for years and some can be found on the
web, one you may want to read is:
http://www.pitt.edu/~hslst7/honey/honey.html
I won't post the others but will say they are just as bad in making false
and out of context statements to advance a narrow point of view of why you
should not eat your honey.
>- the honey is sterilised and
>- the honey is washed with food grade soap
I can say without reservation that the honey producing industry, including
myself, has a long way to go as far as what we could do to produce a better
quality product. Lucky for us in most cases the no good bad rotten stealing
Honey Packers removes much of what we miss, in the honey packing process,
and in some cases adds a little something of his own, moisture to make up
the loss. God has been good to us to have given us Honey Packers as bad as
they are they do insulate us from the consumers, he gets the complaints
while we take the praise. In this world the honey packer and the consumer
are the one's who have the most to say what honey is all about as it must
be marketed in competition with other products that are far less expensive
and are really chemically pure if not natural.
Please take note I know that few here have had the experience of selling
bulk honey and all here may do an excellent job of selling all they produce
to their friends and neighbors, and even their town or county. And all
should be proud of what they do to produce the best most holism product in
the world, honey, but out here in the real world there are many if not most
honey producers who can not sell all their honey to their neighbors and
must sell to others who gather large quanties of honey, clean it up and
blend it together, and market it to the bulk industrial users, or the
wholesale trade that retails it to the average consumer and they produce
the bulk of what honey is consumed in the USA a large market for domestic
and world honey.
>Can anybody convice me the opposite?
>A scientific approach will be much more credible.
Well if we have to be careful of what we say, scientific or not, then I
give up and declare you the winner and wish you lots of luck convincing the
public that honey is better than other food products because it comes from
wooden bee hives, plastic bee hives, or even bee trees.
I personally think of honey as a natural sweetener that differs in taste
and composition according to the flowers in bloom when and the location and
the environment it was produced in.
ttul, the OLd Drone
... I said, but just to be a bee
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
in any form, or to print for any use.
(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
December 31, 1997 Andy's comments on Organic Honey Certification...
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: Organic Honey YES!
>What are the REAL objections to an Organic Certified Honey.??
The difference between certified Organic Honey and not certified can not be
measured other then the cost to certify it and the wording of the label.
I have a smaller irrational but real fear that if this kind of regulation
and taxing were made law in a short time all beekeepers would be paying the
same tax to level the playing field for those who want Federal Organic
Honey Laws as if it is that easy for some to pay then why not have them all
pay. A national tax by way of new fees on bees to support Honey House
Standardization has been in the wind for decades.
>#1. You don't HAVE to do it if you don't want to. So if people don't want
>to provide it - they should get out of the discussion. Flaming the issue
>is no help.
"FLAMING is in the eye of the reader and should not be used to dismiss
honest discussion or even good old argument as knowing the difference is
the real value of social intercourse." said Harem Scarem *1997 or was it
Honest Abe Linchpin the used car dealer for NJ?
>#2. There IS a need for it. Even on this list I see discussion on the
>different possibilities of contamination. Thru apistan, thru forage, thru
>HFCS especially! There are real humans who desire that their food is
>clean. I am one.
Nothing wrong with this, and the protection of the state and the good
judgement of the beekeepers is with you, keeping all honey free of
contamination right now and if there is need for improvement it should be
done in the existing framework of laws, rules, and regulations and not with
separate and new laws and taxes.
>#3. It is do-able. Organic farmers can provide clean forage. Allowing the
>bees to make their own foundation is possible. Treatment options exist.
>Perhaps what isn't possible is to continue taking everything from the bees
>without giving back. Factory production mentality doesn't work with
>organic approaches.
I can assure you that for most there is NO WAY that you can produce 100%
clean honey no matter what you pay in additional taxes or what mountain top
you keep your bees on. Bee hive products, including honey are
representative of the total environment and not just some micro area the
bees are reared in, so if there is a problem in the environment it will
show up in the bee hive and its products if you want to look at small
enough particles of the products, such as parts per billion, trillion.. NO
one know if these small amounts of contamination is bad or just natural in
organic foods.
As far as your advice on keeping bees and leaving more honey on, as far as
I know most do that now, but I can tell you that if you did nothing other
then leaving all the honey the bees produced on them, and had no other
problems, pests, or you name it, those hives would be just as dead in three
years time or less, at least in the areas I have kept bees in the US..
Honey bees in most areas of the world that they are not native require
keepers to survive, when beekeepers are all gone there will be few if any
honey bees in the US. The so called feral populations in the US that got so
much press the last year are no more then the reflections of the kept hive
bee populations and without the hive bee population goodbye feral
populations if this has anything to do with Organic Honey, I am not sure.
>The only thing I don't understand is the tax issue. Is it set up so that
>"organic" honey is taxed and the honey with contaminants and god knows what
>is not???
My God knows that the vast majority of honey produced by beekeepers around
the world is pure, natural, and organic; produced with the personal pride
of beekeepers that keeps it from being contaminated other then what is
natural and organic and it is no better nor worse than what one would find
if his honey was delivered from the wild bee tree in the same area, and
that bee tree honey is about as pure, natural and organic as it gets.
Anytime the government of the US gets involved in its own brand of
legalized consumer fraud the cost of doing business goes up. Just look at
the spring waters in Hot Springs, Arkansas, 100% US Government regulated
for an example how far they will go in ripping off the public by law. I am
sure there are defenders of the natural spring waters but that does not
make it right.
ttul, the OLd Drone
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
in any form, or to print for any use.
(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
December 24, 1997 Andy's comments on some bee research and bee feed...
From: Andy Nachbaur
Subject: Re: WINTER FEEDING
>re: the recent exchange of information on tartatic acid I am not
>interested in a prolonged debate on this subject but I would not term
>Leslie Bailey of the Rothamsted Experimental Station an isolated
>researcher
I have to second that. I have met, talked and worked for short times with a
lot of good research scientists and research administrators, some of whom the
beekeeping industry had little interest in because we beekeepers have very
narrow vision when it comes to research and want the "silver bullet" and
basic research does not work that fast. Dr. Bailey is in my book one of the
best bee scientists I have read or met. Beekeepers today are better off
for what he has done and written or would be if they have read him. What
has impressed me the most about him was his ability to see the big picture
while others in research have a much narrower view being more concerned with
their own research and have no idea of the big picture. This is not to say he
is wrong or write about "tartaric acid" as used in any bee feed formula as
with all things in beekeeping there are as many variables as beekeepers working.
I would not personally bet any money against any lab work or its results as
reported by Bailey or his co-workers.
On the addition of so called active and inert ingredients to bee feed, it
would be easy to pass off the different opinions as "different strokes for
different folks", but I learned early on that with the keeping of bees this
is not always the case and not worth the effort to change peoples opinions,
especially beekeepers as there is nothing we won't argue about, such as
cane vs beet sugar or one race of bees vs another.
One thing is clear - what works for you in your area is what you should use.
I try, and I think most other beekeepers also try to tell the story of what
they see in their area. I try not to be judgmental or promote what I see as
the best for all. (I sometimes fail at this.) I am fast to admit that some
of what we do, or some cases a lot of what we do, is at cross purposes to
the results we would like to have such as good healthy bees all the time
and pockets full of honey money...
Here in California because there are more honey bees restricted in a
smaller area then any other place in the world more supplemental feeding of
sugar is done then any place else in the world. More sugar is used here by
bee feeders then some countries in the world use in their total canning
season. There was a time years long past when bag sugar was used here in
California. Those day's are only a remembrance for most. Having had the
experience of unloading a few car loads of bagged sugar and mixing and
feeding it to bees I can report without any reservations that there is
nothing better then liquid HFCS for bee feed. I am sure that many will
report how they do well with dry sugar or even pure honey, but most who do
when asked also say they have never used HFCS, usually because it is not
available, or priced out of sight because of high transportations cost, or
in some cases government cane sugar programs that keep political barriers
of one kind or another up making the use of other sugars unattractive. Some
places still shoot you and your family if you don't follow the government
line.
Here in the US because of smart early political actions corn refiners were
able to keep HFCS from being considered by our government regulatory
officials as just more sugar in liquid form, which in most ways it is. They
have been able to build or overbuild as many HFCS plants as they can afford
which has greatly reduced the number of beet and cane sugar plants and the
acreage devoted to the growing of them, and increased the total acreage
devoted to corn. So far this has been OK for the consumers as competition
has keep the price reasonable if not cheap. When the price of all liquid
sugars are the same, HFCS is the choice of most bee feeders, or a blend of
inverted sucrose and HFCS which some believe is the cream da la cream of
bee feed.
There are times when some would want to feed dry sugar. If this was the
normal event in my own apiary I would take the time and expense to mix that
dry bag sugar with the dry invert fondant sugars that are available. The
cost would be higher, but 50 # of dry invert fondant sugar should be enough
if mixed in a small drum mixer with 200# of regular dry sugar to save a lot
of bees from burning out inverting the regular dry sugar. This is very good
from nuc's that do not have replacement bees hatching out, and also good
with hives that are to the "quivering or cold" stage of starvation as they
can get the benefit of this type of sugar blend without repeated trips to
the well for water which is not always possible.
>> Your contribution to clarify the issue is quite welcome. However, I
>> wonder whether the two beekeepers who criticized the use of tartaric acid
>> ever tried it to confirm if it indeed causes what an isolated researcher
>> stated. Unfortunately it is plenty of pseudoscientists out there writing
>> and confussing the mind of beekeepers.
I would not presume to criticize how any beekeeper uses any sugar, but
wonder why bother with this type of feed which was abandoned here in
California by most for feeding bees many years ago? At the same time I am
sure what others are doing is best for them and I would most likely be
doing the same if I were in their position and all else were the same, (or
the price of HFCS sugars increased dramatically).
IMHO, Andy-
(c)Permission is given to copy this document
in any form, or to print for any use.
(w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK!
December 2, 1997 Andy's comments on the GM bee promotion...
From: Andy Nachbar
Subject: Re: Promotion by the National Honey Board
>>What happened to the Research Money collected
by the Honey Nut Cheerios people?<<
Never was able to find out what happened to the BS Research Money GM was
going to give, maybe someone else has the details?
What I did find out was this "Save the Honey Bee" was not supported my most
in the industry because it was suspected that it was more intended to
promote a GM product then give any meaningful help to the bee industry
because of long time experiences with this company by those in the bulk
honey industry. The same company cut back on the amount of honey they use
in their products because they could not see paying the beekeepers so much
for their honey. They did not change the labels on their product just
replaced most of the honey with other sweeteners leaving enough in so they
could keep the word "honey" in the ingredient statement and label. In some
products there is about as much salt as honey.
ttul, the OLd Drone
October 19, 1997 POLLINATION RESULTS
From: Andy Nachbar
Honeybees and beekeepers acknowledged as responsible for bumper
crops of cranberries, ($1,400,000,000,000.00 or 1.4 billion $$)in areas
reported by others as having lost 90% of the bee populations? Check it
out on the ABC News web page below.
What ever your slant on the hype and misinformation still being passed
like the wind on the reported the loss of all feral bees and much of the
hive bee populations the facts seem to be the effect on agriculture has
been limited as the 1997 crop reports come in for the year and all the
bee, honeybee,(feral and hive) pollinated crops report record yields with
Cranberries taking the dollar lead from the 1996 and 1997 billion dollar
California almond crop.
http://www.abcnews.com/sections/business/harvest/harvest_cran.html
ttul, the OLd Drone
September 24, 1997 Finding Almond Pollination in California
From: Andy Nachbaur andy.nachbaur@calwest.net
> How can I find information on growers in
> california, texas or florida that need bees for polination? Is there a
> web site or publication for the growers? I tried finding info on growers
> in california on the web, but had no luck.
Well, I just checked and had no problems finding many California Almond grower
sites using YAHOO. Also check out the news groups for orchardists I don't know
of any beekeeping web pages that are looking for bees to rent, but with almost
3,000 beekeeping web pages of one kind or another it is getting to be near
impossible to keep up with their content.
Central California Newspapers that advertise beekeeping supplies, bee hives,
trucks w/loaders, and pollination:
http://www.modbee.com/classcs/clas0950.htm
I would watch the classified ads in the Fresno and Modesto Bee. Most are
beekeepers looking for a home for their bees in the almonds, but this is a
good place to advertise. Also use the many search engines and look for almond
grower hang outs.
> This year my colonies are going along with another
> beekeeper's bees to california for winter.
This is the good way to get started if the other beekeepers have a home for
your bees in California. WARNING, just moving bees to some location without a
solid contract can cause financial hardships that are not easy to overcome.
Only this week beekeepers in this area have had contacts for several thousand
hives that have never been in California that are looking to move here with NO
pollination contacts at all and could not place them as they have more then
enough hives to take care of their growers..
> I would like to find some source at the polination end in advance. Any info
> would be really appreciated.
We call them Pollination Pimps, people who make money from renting others bees
to growers, more often then not they make claims for your bees that you can not
live up too, anyway they are another source of pollina